Curse

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

6. Finally, if you are truly a casual player then your spreading the word isn't likely to matter much. What are you telling people? That GWars is great, look at me, it is so compelling a game that I spend a bit of time on it now and then! I'm sure that made all kinds of people drop what they were doing and go out and purchase it. *laugh*

note a simple provable fact.

sales charting companies are still reporting verg good sales of GUILDWARS.

the asian market will be opened soon.

in spite of all the extremests being shaken out of the game so far with more to come.

THE HARDCORE UAS PVP
THE HARDCORE GRINDING LEVELMONKEY
THE HARDCORE FARMER/BOT

and the crys of doom by june without UAS/MORE LEVELS/PHAT LOOT the game is still selling to people who have heard good things about it being for the CASUAL gamer.

FINALLY I SUBMIT THAT THE 200+ DISTRICTS FOR HALLOWEEN SHOW INTEREST IS STILL HIGH BUT SIMPLY WAITING (CASUALLY) FOR THE NEXT CHAPTER.

this is not for the person who brags about burning through the game in a week than whines that there is nothing to do.

it is for the VAST majority of people who play several hours a WEEK not the 10+ hour a DAY gameplayer.

this game is for us small folks that have a real life as well as games.

sales of chapter 2,3,4 will be the deciding factor and not anything (including mine) posted on a small forum representing a fraction of the small fraction that even visit any board.

find a game you enjoy and post on their game boards instead of simply complaining

jciardha · Nov 30, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Something just occurred to me ...

If we have two accounts, therefore two CD keys ... are we going to have to buy one copy of the expansion for EACh account??

*panics*

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jciardha

Something just occurred to me ...

If we have two accounts, therefore two CD keys ... are we going to have to buy one copy of the expansion for EACh account??

*panics*

indeed you will

which means it will have to be very good.

you can get one to test the waters and add the second later

Quercia · Nov 30, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Any clues about the part 2 european issuing?

TY

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quercia

Any clues about the part 2 european issuing?

TY

they said they were working on a same time release.

Vorlin · Nov 30, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

I never said GWars was failing, I said that the more people who play at any given time the more likely you'll be to have a continually growing playerbase, and that -if- the number of people who play daily falls below a certain limit that this will tend to work the opposite way, resulting in a continually shrinking playerbase. I made this argument to refute the idea that it would be smart for ANet to have designed GWars to be played only a little bit, not to indicate that GWars is failing.

GWars has gotten off to a very nice start, success-wise. They clearly have produced a product that has broad appeal. I only see two problems for them:

1. They are way too obsessed with farmers and bots. Every single patch has some tweak designed to remove one or both of these, the trouble is it also negatively impacts everyone else who uses the same skill/spell/technique that is targetted. The amount of time they've spent coding on these two non-issues (and they are non-issues, the only people who freak out over either are those who've taken a 'moral' position on the issue) and the number of players they've alienated by such nerfing could have been spent implementing things players have been asking for nearly universally for months and making players happier. Since this fixation has gone on for months now I don't have much hope of it ending, clearly someone high in management has a bee in their bonnet about this issue and can't think of anything else.

2. They've no way to expand in a meaningful way due to their inflexibility in regards to the level 20 cap. I gave an example earlier in this thread about a way that they could keep their cap per -chapter-, thus giving them a way to have a cap and offer endlessly expanding content. Noone who wanted to level higher than a given cap would ever need to (they just stick to whatever chapter fits their level cap desire), yet anyone who wanted to could do so, both groups get exactly what they want. Obviously any solution that appeals to a greater number of players is a better solution than one that appeals to fewer.

Phades · Nov 30, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

BS I'm a casual player and I spread just as much good word about GW's as any handful of hardcore players too. That's just total BS.

There are far far far more casual players playing this game and will continue to play this game than there are hardcore players.

That is irrellevant. Even if the game is tailored to casual players, casual players have a less likely chance of being online at the same time for extended periods of time due to the fact that they are casual players. The casual player is more likely to interact regularly with a "hard core" player due to the amount of time invested daily/weekly in the game. Being a "casual player" and promoting the game doesn't do a whole lot anyway. You get people interested in playing the game with you, not just solo. So, if you arent available to play with, then you just turn them away from the game just as quickly as they come in. I have seen similar instances with new people comming into the game while recruiting, where they simply stop logging in after the first 2 weeks. I have seen over 30 instances like this myself.

Your "numbers" are also irrelevant as total copies sold does not equate directly to the number of people logging in daily in each of "prime time" 4-8 hour blocks by timezone. If the people are not there to play with, then people stop playing. Its quite easy to observe and its a self feeding process. There is a bare minimum required to sustain a game like this and fortunatly i don't think its reached that point yet. Its probably not even halfway there yet, but it is distinctly more vaccant than it was durring the summer on any day of the week at just about any hour of the day. If you lose the players that play the most, its not that hard to lose the players that play the least.

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

If you lose the players that play the most, its not that hard to lose the players that play the least.

not to be facetious (well much) that leaves you with a great middle ground.

as i said halloween shows that while people may be doing other things they are not *gone* in the permanent form of the word for many.

we will see in a few months

Eder · Nov 30, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

ANet didn't design GW to be played by just a few people or just a little bit a day. It goes without saying that that'd be stupid.

They did design GW to be a game in which the time you spend playing doesn't matter much in PvP, however. That's what the "a competitive game for casual gamers" thing is all about. It's a really simple concept to understand, and it explains why they've added a level cap that's ridiculously easy to achieve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

Now, for people who can only play a couple of hours a week it is probably nice that they end up with characters just as powerful as someone who plays hours per day, but is it all that smart to design your game around the people who play it the least?

But does that negatively affect the people who play it the most in any way?

You're assuming that the people who play a lot are somehow bothered by the fact that others can reach the level cap and compete with them - I don't see any logic in that.

Sure, some people play the game a lot (because they like it - but not everyone who likes the game can play it a lot, mind you) and don't want to risk having a casual player walking over their corpse in PvP... so, to them, the idea of a low level cap might seem stupid ("WTF? I play 24/7 and have less hitpoints than that guy? This game blows!"), but I don't think that can be said about most of the "hardcore" (if you will) players, because a) it's not really mature reasoning and b) there are still some things that a hardcore player can chase after in GW (just not extra levels or other types of competitive advantages over people who play less).

...And, even if these "I am hardcore and I do not want you to be able to compete with me!" people are a majority, they have about a hundred thousand bazillion MMO's to choose from, and I'm sure ANet wouldn't mind too much if they took their business elsewhere.

Marketing your game towards people who play only a little might sound stupid at first glance, but marketing it towards people who play a lot and don't want the game to be accessible/competitive for newcomers is even more stupid (specially since this is a one-time-purchase game, so they only earn money when someone who previously didn't play is first attracted to the game - after that, the more you play, the more you're lowering their profit margin).

It might seem like fanboy reasoning at first to say that people who play a lot and don't want others to be competitive should go play something else (It sounds like I'm here shouting "This is my casual gamer game! If you want to change it go play something else!") but there is logic to it. GW was designed to be different from most MMOs out there (including in the grinding aspect) because if it was just another UO clone, it would have to compete with all these other games.... in which case GW's only *real* advantage (which makes it capable of stealing market share from, say, WoW) would be, IMHO, that GW is cheaper. But of course, if you were to market your game towards hardcore players, you wouldn't charge a one-time fee... you'd get people hooked and charge them monthly.

This is the point that sometimes I think some people miss. People who want more grinding in GW strike me as people who are only playing GW as opposed to any other game because GW is cheaper. Well, guess what - if it was a grind-focused game, it wouldn't be cheaper, it'd be monthly-fee-based just like the rest... because in this case, ANet would know they would profit more from milking your grinder ass for 15 bucks every month than from charging a one-time-fee from people who would be too intimidated by how everyone is 238 levels ahead of them to even consider paying for the game once.

Just look at Richard Garriot's new MMO that's currently in development. I have no idea how they plan on selling that thing. It's *so* generic, I'd bet my right arm that it's not going to draw more than 100 people away from other games (And people who aren't currently playing any other MMO games will probably not even hear about it. They'll hear about stuff their friends are playing and go play that instead, or give GW a try since it's a one-time-purchase and since it has an easier "learning curve").

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eder

You're assuming that the people who play a lot are somehow bothered by the fact that others can reach the level cap and compete with them - I don't see any logic in that.

or give GW a try since it's a one-time-purchase and since it has an easier "learning curve").

on the first part you would be surprised at the amount of importance the *i am better than you by definition of a higher level number*

with GUILDWARS these people are truly suffering the anguish of *BEING SURROUNDED BY EQUALS* without a number to prove their inate superiority.

MOST IMPORTANT

people are not counting on people who have left for now but feel that they really got their moneys worth of fun as return customers for chapter 2.

the person who got ONLY 400 hours of fun and said bye for now i got more for my money than i expected is a good prospect for chapter 2

he/she will see ads for new/improved chapter 2 and buy it because they got good value the first time with chapter 1.

people with 800-1200 hours yelling they were robbed dont make sense to me.

FABLE cost 50 bucks and reviews give it 14-15 hours and people say it was fun and get something else.

800 hours of GW *I WAS ROBBED*

hidden_agenda · Nov 30, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

People still don't want to admit that the PvE game was only an afterthought and that GW will always be centered around PvP.

This is statement that I strongly disagree. If GW is so geared around PvP, and PvE is only an after-thought, why is there so much time and effort spent on PvE?

--> Sorrow's Furnace affects the PvE far more than the PvP
--> Halloween Event is more PvE than PvP
--> The nerfing of the loot drops and the change to the chests affects the PvE far more than the PvP

In fact, far less development effort is required if all Anet wants to do is to put out a PvP game -- all they need to design are the arenas and the skills. In fact, you probably get more arenas and more skills if that was the case. I don't believe that PvE was an "after-thought" nor do I believe that GW was ever centered around PvP only.

Quake 3 Arena was a pure PvP game -- it proves that there is a market for such games. If GW was such a PvP-centric game, it'd be more like Quake 3 than its current form.

In fact, one of the good / bad with GW is that fact that it sort of has a dual-personality -- and Anet has constantly been trying to balance the two sides to satisfy both player basis. There is nothing wrong with this, and sometimes the best designs are arrived at through the tension of the forces.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Some people seem to make assumptions about what *I* think about GW, so I'll clue you in.

First, I *hate* the fact that players grind over cosmetic items. I find it pointless, and a waste of time. Bragging about owning FoW armor doesn't impress me at all. Neither does owning a gold "godly" Fellblade, or any other popular item (which seems to change week to week). The game is (IMO) nothing more than a fashion show. I've stated this (in other threads) on numerous occasions. But since everyone has a right to play the game the way they see fit, it's their perogative. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Almost all of my characters use collectors items, simply because they have the best stats. I've never bought anything from anyone for any amount of cash. I've sold some extra superior vigors and absorption runes that I had in storage, and that's about it. But that's me. I have a grand total of 12 globs and 6 shards in my storage, man, I'm almost there! At this rate, I'll have FoW armor in.....4 years?

I dislike grind - but my point (repeatedly) is that the game has turned INTO grind - whether you're a casual gamer or not. I didn't make it that way. The devs didn't make it that way intentionally. But it is what it is. THE PLAYERS have turned it into grind. If you can't grasp the fact that I am arguing AGAINST grind, I feel sorry for your reading comprehension skills. Regardless of how YOU or I feel about it, it's that way. Is it due to people expecting GW to be more like WoW? How do I know? It just IS. My argument is that I hope GW devs in chapter 2 offer MORE than grind - especially if it's just grind of more of the same crap people grind for now. I can't believe anyone can miscontrue my words into supporting grind.

Quit applying your POV of how the game SHOULD be to my arguments of how the game IS. I don't care if you're a casual gamer or not - or how many of your buddies are casual gamers or not. It is immaterial. It's a FACT that the clear majority of active players are simply grinding and farming - and the evidence is in game, as I've outlined before. Again, it is not how *I* want it to be either - but it *IS*.

EVEN THE HOLLOWEEN EVENT WAS SIMPLY FOR INCREDIBLY POINTLESS "STUFF". Does that mean it wasn't enjoyable? No. But everyone flocking to LA, over 200 districts, just to get a stupid pumpkin head? Don't even try and argue it wasn't. Perhaps you personally were there for "fun" doesn't mean that the 1,000s that were there weren't in it just for the goodies.

Oh, and BTW - GW has sold a million copies. WoW has over FOUR MILLION players. GW isn't going to catch up to that, no matter what you *wish* would happen. Do I think GW is a superior game over WoW? Can't say, I don't play anything other than GW. But apparently four times as many people apparently think not.

But then again, I'll get the typical "OMG FANBOI GO PLAY WOW THEN IF YOU HATE GW SO MUCH@!" which means I've wasted 20 minutes typing up this post.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 30, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

I never said GWars was failing, I said that the more people who play at any given time the more likely you'll be to have a continually growing playerbase, and that -if- the number of people who play daily falls below a certain limit that this will tend to work the opposite way, resulting in a continually shrinking playerbase. I made this argument to refute the idea that it would be smart for ANet to have designed GWars to be played only a little bit, not to indicate that GWars is failing.

GWars has gotten off to a very nice start, success-wise. They clearly have produced a product that has broad appeal. I only see two problems for them:

1. They are way too obsessed with farmers and bots. Every single patch has some tweak designed to remove one or both of these, the trouble is it also negatively impacts everyone else who uses the same skill/spell/technique that is targetted. The amount of time they've spent coding on these two non-issues (and they are non-issues, the only people who freak out over either are those who've taken a 'moral' position on the issue) and the number of players they've alienated by such nerfing could have been spent implementing things players have been asking for nearly universally for months and making players happier. Since this fixation has gone on for months now I don't have much hope of it ending, clearly someone high in management has a bee in their bonnet about this issue and can't think of anything else.

2. They've no way to expand in a meaningful way due to their inflexibility in regards to the level 20 cap. I gave an example earlier in this thread about a way that they could keep their cap per -chapter-, thus giving them a way to have a cap and offer endlessly expanding content. Noone who wanted to level higher than a given cap would ever need to (they just stick to whatever chapter fits their level cap desire), yet anyone who wanted to could do so, both groups get exactly what they want. Obviously any solution that appeals to a greater number of players is a better solution than one that appeals to fewer.

They are way too obsessed with farmers and bots. They have too be, there is no limit on how long you can play Guild Wars and farm these precious spot for great drops. I mean look at players from around the world. For all i care, you can play all day long and get at least 100k or more in items or materials. Why is A-Net stopping this because there are too many rich bastards out there. (I'm rich too and i feel bad for those poor people out there) Why are they stopping farming or slowing it down, it hurts the economy. Ever try and buy a ecto only to find the price to be above 50k or 60k? i did. Ever try and get a black dye but that damn dye is worth 40k alone.. I did. Farmers screw with A-Net crappy economy system. I know the answer is why don't A-Net fixed their economy system or reset the price. Simple, if they did, the farmers would be given a free pass to do anything they wanted. Not saying farmers is bad (i'm one personally) but go out there and see how many people advertise "Uber or leet" drops that is asking for 100k or more.

"They've no way to expand in a meaningful way due to their inflexibility in regards to the level 20 cap" Why expanding can you get with level cap 100. I still see no one been able to answer my question from earlier. What if A-Net made Guild Wars in the beginning with level 100 cap. We would come to the forum and whine about the insane time it take to get to certain level? Oh here another point, what do you accomplish with high level? We all know that after level 20, you earn skills point. Do you really think A-Net will give use elite skills or more armor choices if we are higher level? The answer is no, they made it level 20 for people to reach it easily and the reward for getting pass level 20 is to get skill points to be used to unlock skills.

This quote "Noone who wanted to level higher than a given cap would ever need to (they just stick to whatever chapter fits their level cap desire), yet anyone who wanted to could do so, both groups get exactly what they want." can you elaborate a bit more, i don't understand it. You saying with a higher level cap, we can stay at any level we wanted yet to be able to compete with people who is higher (let say level 100). That don't make senese. Here why, say you met a charater who level 100 for chapter 2 and you can only use a level 20 character from chapter 1. Are you telling me that a level 20 can compete with a level 100 from chapter 2 in PvP? Don't make sense at all. althought they can make the level cap a bit higher say 30 or 40 but still if you increase level cap for one chapter it alienate the people who is only level 20 from chapter 1.

Word of Advise for Mimi and for everyone (including me)

Better calm down and don't add fuel into fire before mod start locking down this thread. Let just be reasonable instead of using our rage and anger! My post is just posting question cuz i just don't see why higher level for one chapter would work if chapter 2 will be higher.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 30, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

First, I *hate* the fact that players grind over cosmetic items. I find it pointless, and a waste of time.

I dislike grind - but my point (repeatedly) is that the game has turned INTO grind - whether you're a casual gamer or not.

I can't believe anyone can miscontrue my words into supporting grind.

People are supposedly miscontruing your words because you're constantly contradicting yourself. You've been advocating FOR a higher level cap in this thread and yet you said that you're not for grind.

I do agree that there's grind in GW. The PVE is tedious and repetitive and linear. But adding a higher level cap sure isnt going to fix that.

Vorlin · Nov 30, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

What I meant was that each Chapter would have its own level range (Chapter 1 would be 1 to 20, Chapter 2 would be 20 to 40, etc.) and each Chapter would be self-contained (if you take your character to Chapter 2 he/she can't go back to Chapter 1 areas). This gives you a level cap -and- level progression both, any given player can stop at whatever Chapter they feel is the best level cap for them. Don't want to go past 20? Then you can stay in Chapter 1 and never have to worry about facing anyone with gear/skills from some more advanced chapter.

*******************

As to the anti-farming/botting nerfs, to screw a particular skill/spell over is a terrible approach, if they are worried about the economy then -fix- the economy. God knows people have been asking them to do this for months now, it sure wouldn't piss anyone off if they did. And as many have noted in this thread, farming is generally done out of boredom. I bet you 90% of farmers would stop farming if they had the ability to gain 20 more levels.

Also as noted before, farmers can't really screw the economy because you don't need uber money or uber gear. You can do quite well with modest sums of money gained from normal play and from crafted gear, you'll end up with 95%-99% of what someone gets from spending hundreds (or even thousands) of times the amount of money and effort. Noone needs ecto or black dye, as far as I know.

ANet has a split personality on this issue: on the one hand, they claim that uber gear doesn't matter and that they don't want grind, on the other hand they obsess over eliminating two types of gameplay whose only effect on the game is to increase the availability of the very items the ANet team says aren't that important.

******************

I find the idea that people only want more levels so they can lord it over others to be ridiculous. Sure, I'm sure some people feel that way, but that's hardly an excuse to paint everyone asking for an alteration in the level cap concept with that brush.

*******************

Eet, grind means different things to different people. I -never- feel like I'm grinding when I'm leveling, some feel exactly the opposite (you seem to be one that feels leveling is grinding, for instance, where Mimi doesn't seem to). Mimi seems to me to be defining 'grinding' as engaging in non-productive repetitive activity in PvE once you hit level 20, not the leveling -to- level 20. So she's not contradicting herself, there's just a difference involved in what 'grind' means.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

Word of Advise for Mimi and for everyone (including me)

Better calm down and don't add fuel into fire before mod start locking down this thread. Let just be reasonable instead of using our rage and anger! My post is just posting question cuz i just don't see why higher level for one chapter would work if chapter 2 will be higher.

I am calm. I'm just tired of A) repeating myself when people skip over my lengthly posts and B) make assumptions about how I play, or who I am, on miscontruing what I write.

I am not advocating grind.

I am not advocating raising the level cap.

I am well aware of what the reasoning is behind the level cap.

I am not in favor of the economic disparity between the uber rich and the casual player.

I am not against casual play.

I *am* stating I hope ANet offers a compelling reason to buy chapter two, beyond just turning it into yet more areas to grind and farm from - especially since due to balance and level cap, the items are nothing more than cosmetic differences instead of "better". What is "better"? Tough to say, since ANet's design paradigm won't allow "better".

Once you reach level 20, is simply skill capping the only reason to keep playing, once you've finished the game? Is that it? For players that have finished the game, and capped the skills - what else is there to do? Nothing except grind, which is what a vast majority of people are doing. I WANT ANet to offer something better than that, since apparently there isn't anything more - especially since not everyone gives a rat's behind about PVP.

And yes, I've spent more time than I care to admit playing PVP, in GvG, CA, and Tombs. People have made assumptions about THAT too. I choose not to persue it as much as I used to simply because I hate the environment. Not the gameplay, but the players. The FOTW crap. The egos and elitism, and how it can turn friends into enemies simply because of greed and egos.

Mmmm'kay?

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 30, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I have to agree Mimi

what do we have to grind for craps.. like green weapons (omg he got razorstone) or elite stuffs.

Case in point, yesterday i was with a farming run and in first time since SF came out, i seen 6 green drops on the same day. Once i saw a guy who got both Razorestone and Brohn Rod. I can't believe it and than this guy have the nerves to tell everyone "well, thats my 6 Razorestone"

It made me sad that i didn't get anything and i determine to get a decent green drops. I guess this just made me angry and despair to get greens by any mean necessary.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 30, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

You're not advocating grind and raising the level cap? Hmmmm....

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

Sorry Jack.. level 40 is not a good idea. By making level 40 the cap... people have to constantly do missions and fight different enemies to level up to close level 40. People complain about playing game just to reach certain level. I know its not hard to get to level 20 but that take at least 100 hours or more to get there.

Here was your response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

And just how is that a bad thing? The game provides players content and a rewards system for 100 hours of play? What should they do with their time instead? Isn't that the point of a MMORPG - to provide content and rewards for time spent?

Sure looks like an endorsement for raising the level cap...

EDIT: Haha, this post was useless since she has me on ignore. I guess if you've been repeatedly called out by someone you'd ignore them too...

ChoKILLate[FDG] · Nov 30, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

1.) 2 new classes: This means you can level up 2 new classes or change your current character's secondary for even more diversity.

2.) This most likely means that all of chapter 1 will be included in chapter 2 so that you can level these 2 new characters up and the new people get the whole story....or....

3.) What if they let you level up to something like level 25? New players can start a new character at level 20 and start at chapter 2 instead of chapter 1. They can then pick from some of the current skills and pick a few Elites to start with. The rest they have to purchase or cap.

Takeko Nakano · Nov 30, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

FABLE cost 50 bucks and reviews give it 14-15 hours and people say it was fun and get something else.

800 hours of GW *I WAS ROBBED*

Keep those wise words coming, Lov.